The military call it Gitmo, the journalists Guantanamo, the world - a human rights disaster where the individual ceased to exist. The Geneva Conventions were summarily tossed aside. This is a war where rules and conventions no longer apply said Albert Gonzalez in his Memorandum to President Bush in 2002.
And for the next seven years, the infrastructure to support such a war were erected. Wire cages, secret detention centers around the world and a president who “overrides treaties, conventions and laws in time of war.”
Beyond the reach of Obama's executive order to close Guantanamo is America's own convoluted indoctrination methods of fear. I’m talking about the US military's secretive torture school, the SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape).
”SERE is a repository of the world's knowledge about torture, the military equivalent, in a sense, of the lethal specimens of obsolete plagues kept in the deep-freeze laboratories of the Centers for Disease Control,” writes Jane Mayer in her book The Dark Side.
For the past forty years, Congress has been financing this school with the aim of teaching those caught by the enemy to resist torture and interrogation. Michael Nance, a former SERE instructor, said in his Congressional testimony in 2007 that outlawed torture techniques like water boarding are still taught. And in a 2005 sworn testimony by a former chief of the Interrogation Control Element at Guantanamo revealed that SERE instructors taught their techniques to Guantanamo interrogators.
However, enemy combatants do not employ the torture techniques taught by SERE on US soldiers writes David J. Morris, a SERE graduate. Instead, the school indoctrinates a profound fear of the other. In 2007, 44% of enlisted Marines condoned torture.
Morris writes about his own experiences at the school in Slate and condemns its instruction.
“When I forgot my prisoner number, I was strapped to a gurney and made to watch as a fellow prisoner was water-boarded a foot away from me. I will never forget the sound of that young sailor choking, seemingly near death, paying for my mistake.”
Morris goes onto dismiss SERE's techniques as archaic and systemic of America's underlying fears. Michael Durant, the helicopter pilot shot down in Mogadishu in 1993 survived his 11-day captivity by manipulating and befriending his captors, not by employing SERE techniques says Morris.
Obama's executive order on January 22 needs to go beyond Guantanamo. Serious issues need to be addressed over torture and the infrastructures that support it - infrastructures that are far reaching and wide.
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While I agree that torture is reprehensible and we should not be doing it, i.e., it should be stopped right now along with using other nations to use even more ruthless methods than we do, I believe that your attack on the military's SERE Program is absolute nonsense. You focus on one facet of the school created by Colonel Nick Rowe, a U.S. Army Special Forces Officer who was imprisoned and tortured by communist forces in Vietnam during that conflict.
He wrote a book, “Five Years to Freedom” detailing the horrible treatment he endured at the hands of the communists. The SERE School/Program teaches much more than resistance to torture, it is NOT a “torture school,” it is designed to teach military personnel how to survive in the wilds after being shot down or who otherwise find themselves behind enemy lines during wartime. The Program covers survival, escape and evasion in every environment on the planet and that is the major impetus of the Program and NOT teaching torture. That portion of the Program is to teach resistance to methods of coercion and torture that the enemy might subject our personnel to.
I hope you post this comment, I believe you are maligning many good people by incorporating an attack against the SERE Program in your attack against torture in other areas…
Dear Don,
Point well taken, and I by no means wish to attack anyone not affiliated with this particular part of the program. And as you correctly pointed out, SERE also teaches survival skills in harsh environments. But may I suggest you read the Slate article by a SERE graduate (linked in the blog). If anything, it may give you an added perspective.
I would also like to point out that the Department of Defense declassified a report http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/abuse….) in 2007 which contains official admissions that SERE was taught at Guantanamo and Iraq.
I believe the story first broke in the New Yorker magazine a few years back of how SERE tactics were “reversed engineered” and then taught to interrogators at Guantanamo by SERE personnel. According to the article (The Experiment by Jane Mayer in New Yorker magazine), Guantanamo became a kind of testing ground for these SERE techniques. I don't think it would be off the wall to assume these techniques were also used/taught elsewhere.
Mayer writes that Colonel Louie (Morgan) Banks, a senior Army psychologist who is an administrator of the program said that it was getting out of hand. SERE graduates now have to sign a statement promising not to use the techniques on US held detainees. ‘We did this when we learned people were flipping it,’ he said.
Unfortunately, a signed promise is not very convincing - stopping this particular program is.
Best,
Nikolaj
Nikolaj,
For several years now I have been arguing with conservatives and libertarians about subjects like “waterboarding.” I have been a republican all of my life and when it comes to most issues, I am “more than a little” conservative/libertarian.
I believe this country has not only been financially gutted but we have lost our way in other areas as well. This is but one of those areas and it is a disgusting example of “Jack Bauer Syndrome.” I have heard local talk show hosts and regular, every day people, cite the TV show “24″ and its fictional character, Jack Bauer, as some sort of bizarre “guide” as to how we should conduct ourselves and protect ourselves from the very real threats to our country.
It's absurd. I’m not disappointed or annoyed, I am filled with revulsion at the circus we have become. If you say that around some people, you will be called “Anti-American.”
Getting back to “waterboarding,” I have discussed this with many people who are conservative and they just don't think it's a big deal. They actually refer to the survival training programs of the military, even if they don't know what “SERE” stands for, and they regurgitate incredibly stupid “talking points” like, “It's not 'torture,’ our soldiers, sailors and marines go through that training, it's not torture at all. If they can go through it in training, then we can do it to terrorists.” Or, “the terrorists can handle it if our men can,” etc., etc., ad infinitum.
To be blunt, if you strapped them down and waterboarded them, they would think it was torture and not some type of water ride at an amusement park. People have a funny way of not allowing reality to enter into their opinions at times.
I read the Slate article before I entered in my comments the other day. Out of the thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of military personnel that have experienced the SERE Program, it should come as no surprise that many would not “like” the experience. It is not supposed to be pleasant, it is designed to be harsh for a reason. It also comes as no surprise that out of that many people going through that program that a few would even go on to criticize the program. The author didn't like the experience and has spoken out against it. It is one man's opinion, he has a right to it but that doesn't mean we should eradicate or modify such a valuable program on the strength of his opinion any more than we should adopt the television antics of the fictional “Jack Bauer” to address the problems of international terrorism. The opinions expressed by the author of the Slate article are every bit as myopic and pedestrian as the other extreme who compare waterboarding to having your hair washed.
The program should not be eliminated nor should that portion of the program be eliminated. What should be eliminated is the actual torture of prisoners of war or “enemy combatants.” You don't have to diminish the program or destroy it altogether in order to accomplish the goal of ending this type of interrogation.
If SERE Instructors were used to teach other personnel how to torture prisoners, that should be stopped as well. Their job is to teach military personnel how to survive. Their job should not be teaching the techniques that we all condemn when used against our military personnel.
I agree with Don on just about every point, I am also a graduate of the SERE course, and I’m sure if you took a poll the vast majority will have similar opinions. The school (with zero ambiguity) does NOT teach torture and technique. It teaches: SURVIVAL (in many environs, to include shelter, fire starting what to eat, where to find it, how to prepare it, how to catch/kill it) EVASION (how to hide . . . there is more) RESISTANCE (how to survive self induced stress created by “nasty” living conditions, how to deal with failure and bounce back . . .) and ESCAPE (different techniques). I realize that this description is not precise, but the course changes in detail with the realities on the ground. There is no HOW TO TORTURE/ HOW TO CONDUCT UNPLEASANT STIMULUS portion, this is a school that teaches people how to survive the worst of human conditions (lack of food, lack of sleep, extreme discomfort and captivity) and do it with self confidence and honor intact. If you ask most SERE grads about how (before and after the course) they deal with stress you’ll find most have a perspective that enables them to focus and survive much differently than they would have before. I noticed this in my own experience, and have seen that in other graduates. Using Mr Morris for background material might be helpful as far as some of the specific experiences he went through. But, I went through the course about the same time he did, and he (by his commentary) totally missed the scope and purpose of the course (because he lost his perspective/self respect?). The most important lesson of the course is that you can survive almost anything if you keep your head, and that you obligate yourself to help the “other guy” and bring them back to a confidence level when they tear themselves down (because of shame).
It is a school that has made a great difference in my own life, and if you ask Durant or Scott O’Grady about it they would agree (and they put the lessons into practice in real world conditions).
Dear DonM,
Thanks for the comments and for expanding the debate. It's always good to get some inside perspective on this issue. I am curious though if you had to sign any statement promising not to use the techniques on US detainees. I mention this because Colonel Louie (Morgan) Banks said SERE graduates are required to sign such a statement. Though this was back in 2005 I believe.
Also, how would you respond to the investigations (see DOD report linked above) that SERE instructors taught torture techniques at Guantanamo and elsewhere?
Best,
Nikolaj
No statement I recall, but you have to remember the course is not a HOW TO INTERROGATE one. There are Intel courses that teach that (and not for Aircrews, SF and selected MOS's).
As far as Cadre going down to G'tmo and teaching Intell people “how to” torture . . .all the services have their own schools within each services intel community that teach interrogation. With the parochialism inherent in organizations (even Military ones) I would be surprised if any SERE cadre were invited (let alone asked to instruct) by people who consider themselves SME's (subject matter experts). I think what is more likely is that a former SERE cadre member retired, took a contract job down there, and proceeded to show his peers “How we did it at SERE”. That is conjecture, but similar situations have occurred (and been reported on).
With the contract community what it has been, there are an awful lot of marginal Soldiers/Marines (and not a majority) that have been “cashing in” on the reputation their betters have established.
I think “SERE” is just a “Buzz-Acronym” like a “Buzzword” to people who are dwelling on this. It is something they do not understand and they are just making up stuff as they go along and their point of view is legitimized on the power of, apparently, one graduate from the SERE Program.
One of the most successful “torture” techniques our enemies have used in the past is simply letting our people rot in a bamboo cage in the jungle, i.e., allowing the combination of malnutrition and the elements take their toll on those who will not cooperate. That picture is clearly portrayed in Col. Nick Rowe's book, “Five Years to Freedom” that I mentioned earlier as well as Dieter Dengler's “Escape from Laos.”
Imagine dying very slowly from a simple vitamin deficiency that could be halted by a dirtcheap bottle of mutlivitamins that we all take for granted and can purchase from any grocery store. Now imagine you know you are dying, your teeth are getting loose, you have multiple problems and some Vietnamese communist offers you a shot of B12 with a used, nasty syringe. This is a reality repeated time and time again during the Vietnam War…
I think it's disgusting to malign a program like this. It is necessary and I hope the military bucks this tiny movement to eliminate it on these grounds, this is nonsense.
Yeah, typographical errors and all!
I’m kind of surprised that one who sounded (so) reasonable, has not replied to Don’s or my replies. SERE is not about the politics “of the moment” it is about “survival”. I know many of the denizens of the political “world” could care less about results (let alone consequences, similar to the “professionals” of “Human resources”). Those of us in the “lifesaving” business, seem to have the best results (because that is THE FOCUS) when we don’t allow the (ethically) weak to dictate training goals/purpose at whim
Don,
I think the reason for that is, the reality of the situation is not nearly so dramatic as some people want it to be. I have been into “survival” since I was a kid. They actually used to teach various survival skills in The Boy Scouts of America, I don’t know if they still do that or not. Someone close to me was SERE Cadre at one time.
This type of sensationalism makes me feel queasy. It seems as though liberals are not happy unless they are seizing onto something and blowing it out of all proportion. Any time they get a good whiff of something that they think they can sensationalize and demonize, they never allow facts to get in the way of a good opinion. Such is life. Just like with gun ownership. Einstein, I believe, said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. They know how to stop crime, they won’t do it.
All they have to do is stop whatever policies they find offensive, they don’t have to attack this Program. It’s silly and it’s ignorant - another two things they have never received a vaccine for.
Dear Don and Don,
For two years Binyam Mohamed was tortured in what his lawyers call medieval. This was reported in the The Times today. Binyam was at Guantanamo were he suffered under the aegis of SERE know-how and instruction.
As I had mentioned earlier, the Department of Defense released a report that contains official admission of SERE instructors teaching torture techniques at Guantanamo. This needs to be stopped. No one should have to suffer torture. There is no proof that torture provides credible information. It instead provides recruitment material for those against the US. I think we all agree on that.
DonM brings up an interesting point that these instructors may be retired SERE cadres who took contract jobs (and by retired, I don’t necessarily mean by age). If indeed that is the case, then would their actions not reflect upon SERE itself? Retired SERE cadres have years of experience and training at SERE. They are products of SERE. Or are you suggesting that these are just a few bad apples? Maybe you are right, maybe this reflects more the contract industry.
Also, Don brings up another very important and thoughtful point. He mentions the Jack Bauer Syndrome and the absurdity behind it. Perhaps there is indeed a malaise, a fear, that permeates throughout the US. Perhaps this malaise is filtered through these shows as well.
Nonetheless you both have opened my eyes as well about some of SERE’s other practices.
Best,
Nikolaj
I’m trying to figure out what “opened my eyes as well about . . .” means. SERE was and is a SURVIVAL course. The “resistance” practical exercise is much less than a third of the experience (though memorable). As far as the “retired SERE” instructors . . . with the number of “retired” claiming membership/experience in all kinds of things (special missions organizations, special schools, etc), I would take anything where such a source is utilized with a great grain of salt.
I leave you with one fact. The course benefits the students in a way that most do not realize till much later, they understand “perspective” and “resilience”. The old quote (said to me when I was confused, tired and down on myself for yielding) was; “be like the basketball . . . bounce back” (I realize this sounds simplistic, but in the context of the formalized lessons taught, and the stress of the course . . .), for me this caused a paradigm shift . . . I think (for those who understand the lessons taught) this is the goal of the course; “This too you can survive”.
If you want the philosophy behind the creation of the modern course (it’s purpose) and the story of it’s creator and chief proponent, read “5 Years to freedom” , by Nick Rowe
I will add that the vast majority who’ve attended the course “get it” (referring to the above comment). Mr Morris (by his own admission) did not, whether “willfully, or otherwise. I would not take the low road of calling him a coward (he is a combat vet) or a wimp, but his commentary reveals that he lost his perspective and self respect in the course. He did not “bounce back” and perhaps continues to be damaged. The “damages” that can result from the course are (with the exceptions of falls and physical injuries sustained while evading which occur though are rare) self inflicted (the greatest stress possible to inflict on the individual is largely self induced). With his reaction to this course being what it was, one can only imagine what his reaction would be to Jumpmaster School (self induced stress central).
Wow! I guess SERE had more of an effect on Mr Morris than anyone can imagine. I’ll not write “you” since I don’t wish to be accusatory (or personal) but it’s breathtaking, the macro-exaggeration, the micro analysis the writer immerses himself in. I have to believe that the writers political affiliations have degraded his capacity for common sense, he knows the purpose of the course, he knows it’s (general) POI (as it was in 95′ when I also went through the course), and yet he enlarges the courses impact on the culture (as well as the importance of his own opinion). The indelible impact on me (and most of those who’ve actually attended the course) was a appreciation for the fact that one can “bounce back” from just about everything, and that you never give in to anger and disappointment at (your own) failures. Add to this (for me) that it was the funniest school I had been through (though I did not appreciate that “in the moment”), and the most inspiring.
Of course by the writers commentary this means that I am (my interpretation of the writers verbosity) “brainwashed”. But in the immortal words of Stephen Wright (I paraphrase) ” I know I’m in my own world, but that is OK, everybody there knows me”.
The Airborne Regiment was a great organization who’s reputation was sullied by a few criminals. The reason it was disbanded was not because of rot in the Regiment, but a rot in the MOD (yielding to the hysterical rantings and exaggerations of the Left and near left who screamed about the terrible discomfort of the few, and were curiously silent when 800k were exterminated in Rwanda one year later).
As far as a “rite of passage”, maybe it could be perceived as such by some. Frankly I’d much rather go through the “Dance of the Zulu warrior” as a rite, than be hiding in the day and moving at night for days on end with little food or sleep, and then spend time with a whole bunch of unhappy souls who want me to admit I’m a “criminal” . . . but that’s just me. I tried to avoid going through the course, but I did receive much more from it than I ever expected (and no, I don’t have a desire to torture anybody, save by boring verbosity). It’s a shame that Mr Morris did not
I expect Mr Morris to remain “above the fray” and learn lessons of . . . he should have learned before. I realize as a denizen of the boards respect is “granted” not “earned” so I do not expect Mr Morris to “demean” himself by directly answering the critical commentaries (on this site as well as others) from those of us who actually went through what he did, and have a COMPLETELY different picture of the programs goals, it’s value and it secondary and tertiary impacts on the greater military family. That last word is the most important part of this comment. Those of us who sacrifice for “the greater good” have an obligation to the society and each other incomprehensible to the masses. Methinks Mr Morris forgot that long ago in the arms of political “expediency” . . . Is it always all about “me:”?
So, we are to believe that with the vast, covert operations experience of The Central Intelligence Agency which has ALWAYS maintained a hand in all of these issues, with those vast resources they had to rely on SERE Cadre? I’m sorry Mr. Morris. I don’t know you and would not even insinuate that you are a “coward” or anything else! I just disagree with you and won’t fall into the easy reigns of attacking your character.
I find it totally unbelievable that the government would have to bring in SERE Cadre to initiate stress positions, sleep deprivation, playing loud rock and roll music, using bright lights or even what has come to be known as “water boarding.” Good grief, did Mel Gibson bring in SERE Cadre as technical advisors on the film “Conspiracy Theory?” It has “water-boarding” in it!
I don’t believe in torture, I also don’t believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water.
The good news is, the President is not going to shut down the SERE Program no matter how much goofiness liberals can come up with. When the rubber hits the road, pilots and special operations personnel cost a lot of money to train and this is very valuable insurance for them. You’re not going to shut the Program down with emotional, ludicrous claims.
Thank you Don, the shear simplicity of the argument escaped me. I had mentioned before the parochial nature of each services intelligence branches. The silly idea that (as far as the “professionals” are concerned) amateur efforts would be of use goes in the face of reality. Mr Morris knows this, so what is his motivation?
Dear all,
I would like to inform you that Mr. Morris asked me to remove his comment.
Best
Mr Nielsen,
I am surprised that Mr Morris would feel uncomfortable interacting with people from similar backgrounds and experience. I find it interesting and stimulating to hear different impressions/lessons learned from people who’ve gone through like experiences. To argue/disagree and have meaningful interaction teaches both sides.
I found your initial piece, and your replies open and reasonable and professional
Likewise, best regards
Mr. Morris withdrew his comments because the only thing he had to offer as a defense for his article were personal attacks against him. Once you are able to parry that effectively and get to the heart of the matter and once you don’t have the bully pulpit of a simple article and you have to defend your statements in an arena like this - your opinions parading as facts fall apart. His opinion is not fact and his statements when confronted with a glass of cold water collapse like the pillar of salt they are. If I were him, I would not want to be dissected like this, either.
The CIA doesn’t have to go to the SERE Program to get people who know how to torture people. They work on plausible deniability, why would they open themselves up to people who give soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen are hard time in a SERE Course when they have a worldwide pool of butchers from other countries to draw from, professionals who really play hardball? It just doesn’t make sense.
The liberals have, as I said before, just seized upon “SERE” because it is something they can demonize because most people don’t know what it is. Just like the fictitious “gun show loophole” in the gun control debate, most people don’t know any better and they use these various buzzwords as a rallying point for their cause which is tearing everything apart in this country that they politically and philosophically disagree with.
As far as “GITMO” is concerned, this is my opinion… Those who deserve it should be executed by firing squad or hanging and this should have been done a long, long time ago because any intelligence we (as a country) could gain after a certain period of time is no longer operational, anyway. Other prisoners should serve their sentences, life or less, etc.
Keeping them there for this long really was a mistake in my opinion. The worst should have been executed within 12 months of capture.
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